Feminists In Love: The Menz Problem

It seems I have inadvertently stumbled upon a subject that other people apart from me would like to talk about. Awesome! ‘Cuz it’s been in my mind for quite some time now, and I haven’t as of yet found any reference to it in the feminist (radical or otherwise) blogosphere.

The subject in question can be summarized as follows:

It SUCKS to be a STRAIGHT radical feminist“.

It would be a long, winding excercise to enumerate the many reasons why it sucks to be a straight radical feminist, but let’s give it a try.

The most obvious one is, of course, the inevitable aversion that we have towards men after years devoted to understanding and discovering what they do to us women. Misogyny is a radical feminist’s bread and butter. It’s the very stuff we work with every day in our tireless quest to dismantle Teh Patriarchy. And the very essence of misogyny is simple: “they hate us”. It is only natural that we would, at the very minimum, face men with a raised eyebrow and a suspicious look. So, from the get go we have a problem: how can we expect to love that which we know hates us? Sounds masochist, doesn’t it? The only solution I can come up with lies in the distinction between the “whole” of men as a group and every individual man. They might all hate us, but it is possible to find at least one who doesn’t. Right?

Then there’s the problem of that individual man. For me, my feminism is non-negotiable, and I guess it will be the same for most radical feminists. The question is, can we love someone who doesn’t agree with our most basic values? And should we? Where do we draw the line? After all, men do have a tendency to engage in misogynistic behaviour (Duh!). Can we love someone who, say, visits prostitutes, goes to strip clubs or consumes porn? And should we? I know I can’t and I am quite certain that I shouldn’t. We know very well that no matter what men say, when they disrespect “some” women, that attitude tends to “spill over” to all women. You know how you can test the “quality*” of a society by the way it treates its most vulnerable individuals? Well, I think you can test how much of an asshole a man is by the way he think of the “least valuable**” women. I’ll call this the “Tracy Test of General Assholery”. I’ve been with men who scored very low on that test. They didn’t think much of women and they didn’t think much of me.
We all choose different battles and that in turn will, I guess, define what we will tolerate from a man and what we won’t. Like waxing, or dress-code, we will all have our individual “deal breakers”. But once we have firmly established what those deals are, what we are willing to put up with and what we are not, we fly in the face of the cold, harsh reality: the men who could, in principle, meet all our feminist “requirements” would be very, very few. We are looking at a small, almost non-existent sample here. Feminist men do not abound. And this is when desperation kicks in for me, usually in the form of:

“Aaah, I’ll never find love! I’m going to be single forever!!! I hate MEN!!! Being straight SUCKS!!!”

And… we are back to where we started. Unless we come up with an alternative. Can we? More to come. Stay tuned!

What do you all think? Do you feel the desperation of an eminent life in “permanently single” land? What are your deal breakers? Are we being “too picky” or are we merely being consequent with our principles? And if so, well, no one said that would be easy.

* By “quality” I mean an artificial measure of how crappy it’s individuals have it.
** By “least valuable” I mean the women that patriarchy values less by definition, ie: prostitutes, old women, the unfuckable (fat, ugly, hairy, etc), disabled, black, homosexual, etc.

NOTE: Before anyone accuses me of assuming that all feminists are straight, note that I said “more to come”.

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78 Responses so far »

  1. 1

    Anji said,

    I was lucky enough to meet a man out of the blue who fit all my prerequisites: loves my kid, loves animals, loves women. He needs to be called on his privilege occasionally but he’s learned not to go on the defensive.

    That’s not to say I 100% believe him to be safe, because I don’t believe any man is safe. As I said at Witchy’s the other day, I don’t even believe my son will be safe once he is a grown man. But my partner is as near as damn it.

  2. 2

    Polly Styrene said,

    You are assuming MT that it doesn’t suck to be a lesbian radical feminist of course…..And a lot of people assume (entirely erroneously) that all lesbians are feminists. Nothing could be further from the truth.

  3. 3

    Yes, but my Norman….

  4. 4

    bonobobabe said,

    Glad you brought this up, MT9! I’ve been having issues with this myself. Unfortunately, any generalizations we make will be followed with “My Nigel this,” and “My Nigel that.”

    Anyway, yes I am completely frustrated. Every time I try to date, I end up with these dudes that act like they crawled out from under a rock. I listen to other women talk about their boyfriends and husbands (when they aren’t on the defensive about their Nigel), and bad behavior is ubiquitous with men. They act entitled to care from women, to sex from women, to being the center of attention.

    I actually don’t believe that men love women…at least not the way women love them. Men are more pragmatic. They look at relationships as if they are business transactions. And obviously, I can’t know this for sure, but I am suspicious that the pro-feminist men are just very pragmatic. They may simply understand that saying nothing keeps the sex coming and the dishes done and the laundry folded. If they said how they really felt, all that would go bye-bye.

    I don’t know if radical feminists can have relationships with men or not. I know I always felt like something was wrong, even when I was with a man who was a good guy. When I look back, I can see the privilege, I can see the control, etc.

    I like the idea of not giving men any of my time and energy if I can help it. I have female doctors, female hairdressers, female masseuses, and I preferentially patronize female-owned businesses (if I happen to know that piece of information about a place).

  5. 5

    dammit I meant nigel. These men- they’re all the same to me.

  6. 6

    bonobobabe said,

    Oh, and I wanted to add something that I think is important. Let’s assume that these good guys, these pro-feminist men are not simply just really, really henpecked. Let’s assume they are the real deal.

    Well, I think everyone would agree, even the Nigelitas, that these men are in the minority. Serious minority.

    So, therefore, I posit that women have more important things to do than to spend precious life energy trying to find that one needle in a haystack. We have lives to lead. We have careers, hobbies, medical problems, homework for school, housework to do, laundry to wash, voodoo dolls of our boss and coworkers to make, pets to clean up after, goals to strive for, big ticket items to save up money for, vacations to plan, countries to overthrow, etc. Why should we sit around worrying about finding a good, feminist man, when they are as rare as hens’ teeth?

  7. 7

    Mary Tracy9 said,

    Polly, I haven’t assumed that it doesn’t suck to be a lesbian radical feminist, though I have assumed that lesbian radical feminist don’t have the problems with finding love from a man that straight radical feminists have.

    Anji, you really should reveal how you found your partner! What’s the secret!?

    Bonobobabe, I think you and me are quite on the same place. We have a good dose of cynicism wrt male partners but at the same time we have a good dose of hope that maybe, just maybe… All I can say is that for me it’s very painful. Of course I want a career and of course I have voodoo dolls to make, but I would also like to find someone to share somethin special with.

  8. 8

    crankosaur said,

    Ugh, I know! My boyfriend is usually pretty swell, but every once in a while he says something that brings out a *facepalm* in me. However, unlike most males I know, he actually, you know, listens to me when I call him out on any victim blaming/male privilege showing/etc.
    But this problem extends beyond finding a partner; forming friendships with men or even just interacting with men on a daily basis is really hard when you know the vast majority are completely awful.

  9. 9

    Nah Mary it’s just that every other lesbian I meet seems to be into B*SM. Don’t get me started……

  10. 10

    L.M. said,

    ““Aaah, I’ll never find love! I’m going to be single forever!!! I hate MEN!!! Being straight SUCKS!!!””
    Hee – well, disclaimer, that I found true feminism fairly young and didn’t have a long-term boyfriend let alone husband or son to play Nigel.
    I guess that I’ve started to look at it as – and yeah, I’m a pessimist – would I rather live alone, or live with some sexist asshole who uses me for sex and housework and might rape, beat or kill me (or another woman) someday?
    Funny that whenever I start to doubt it, men have a way of proving me right.

  11. 11

    L.M. said,

    Sorry to double post, but being single doesn’t mean that you can’t have pets or (platonic) friends.

  12. 12

    marytracy9 said,

    Guys, we really are a bundle of hope and joy, aren’t we? It makes for good post fodder, though.

  13. 13

    bonobobabe said,

    Bonobobabe, I think you and me are quite on the same place. We have a good dose of cynicism wrt male partners but at the same time we have a good dose of hope that maybe, just maybe…

    Nope. I actually don’t have any hope. Like L.M. said, when I get some hope, men just prove what assholes they really are.

    Also, what L.M. said about pets and platonic friends is true. I mean, whatever needs and wants males fulfill (albeit poorly), there are always substitutes.

  14. 14

    Nine Deuce said,

    I’m glad you brought this up. I think about this almost constantly. I’m currently in a relationship with a dude I think is pretty alright as far as all this stuff goes, but I am still highly suspicious of everything. I mean, I wonder all the time whether it’s not all just some charade put on for my benefit (which I admit is a bit paranoid of me). I suppose the fact that he has a little daughter is what helps convince me that it’s not bullshit that he’s interested in feminism. And that he does seem quite thoughtful about it.

    But I’ve met exactly 3 dudes in my entire life who took any kind of interest in feminism, and 2 of them were creepy. That’s pretty bad odds. And when I think about Kyle Payne…

  15. 15

    Lara said,

    Ah, Mary Tracy, this spins through my mind all the time.

    “Nah Mary it’s just that every other lesbian I meet seems to be into B*SM. Don’t get me started……”

    That must be tough to deal with Polly. Because it does look like much of lesbian/gay culture (at least what’s seen of it in the mainstream) is very pro-BD*M and pro-porn). And that’s not the kind of relationship any of us radical feminists would want.

    Ahem, back to Mary’s original post, wrt to being a straight radical feminist. Yes, it’s so incredibly difficult. Not because I think women need men in any way whatsoever. If men all died tomorrow women would find a way to live and cope, quite happily. Hell, I’ve heard women will be able to create babies together without any semen or male “help.” It’s just tough because I cannot help but feel attracted to males, especially sexually. I have a libido the size of Rhode Island and it’s a problem when that’s paired with an incessant (and righteous) suspicion of men overall. I could never bring myself to be attracted to other women sexually, even though I’ve been infatuated with one or two women on a more emotional/platonic(?) level. Jake Gyllenhaal is one of my weaknesses, along with chocolate and Indian food. That tells you something….And I am by no means into male celebrities. He’s just super lovely. 🙂
    Argh, damned hormones. Ug, me woman, ug, me want good man for boing boing 😛

  16. 16

    Lara said,

    And seconded that men surpass all of your wildest expectations…in the worst ways.

  17. 17

    polly styrene said,

    I think the lesbian B*SM thing is over represented in a way Lara, like everything in the media – people who are good at shouting get an undue amount of attention. Probably the vast amount of lesbians are not into B*SM, or porn either. Unfortunately minority communities are horribly prone to fads, and it’s easy for someone to feel under pressure to conform even if they don’t want to.

    I just seem to have this knack for being attracted to women who turn out to be into BDSM. Either that or everybody I meet is perfect in every other way, but way too young……

  18. 18

    marytracy9 said,

    Hi, Cranckousaur and Nine Deuce! Welcome and thanks for commenting! I wish you the best of luck with your relationships!

    “Argh, damned hormones. Ug, me woman, ug, me want good man for boing boing”.

    HAHAHA!!! Lara, it’s my honour to give you the Lolest Comment of the Post So Far Award! Congratulations!!! HAHAHA!

  19. 19

    Lara said,

    “HAHAHA!!! Lara, it’s my honour to give you the Lolest Comment of the Post So Far Award! Congratulations!!! HAHAHA!”

    Yeay. That’s the best award I’ve ever gotten 🙂

  20. 20

    Liz said,

    I’m wondering if despite there being very few men out there who will be ‘right’ for us feminists, maybe being in a relationship with one gives you a chance to ‘educate’ them about feminism? I know our job as feminists is not to educate men, they need to educate themselves, but if you are in a relationship with someone, whether a man or woman, surely there is some give and take? For example, in a good relationship, you learn a lot from each other. Ideally, a relationship needs to be more about two individuals coming together and sharing their lives, ideals, politics, hobbies, memories and so on. I probably do have a lot of privilege in that the guy I’m with I’ve been with for 7 years and we are both doing our degrees (me an MA and him his BA) so we have grown up together and been through a lot together. It has been hard but we talk about feminism a lot. He doesn’t say he’s a feminist nor ‘pro-feminist’ or claim that he knows a lot about feminism, but he listens and takes it on board and stuff. Maybe thats what its all about? Not claiming you are a male feminist, but being supportive of the woman/women in your life and also making changes in your own life to do with feminist principles (ie. examining whether you have destructive masculinity etc). But I have come across some real assholes, and I feel all the more lucky that the man I’m with has more sense than that. Just my two pence! Also, I know its not going to apply to everyone, I guess. But there IS hope out there.

  21. 21

    Ciccina said,

    Okay, I’m going to butt in here in the role of the bossy auntie…

    Don’t make sweeping generalizations. “Men” aren’t all a certain way. Nor are “women.” Unless you’re into the biological essentialist thing. But seriously – look around. There are plenty of horribly anti-feminist women out there. And there are plenty of good men. I don’t mean good* with an asterisk either. I mean good.

    My ex-husband was/is not a sexist; my current partner is not a sexist; even my bum of a stepfather, for all his many faults, was not a sexist – and would call any man on the carpet for making a sexist comment, no matter who or where.

    I know this can be hard to believe when you are bombarded every day by a culture that tells you that all men are shit. As far as I can tell, the media’s idea of the ideal man is some kind of shlumpy man-child who’s only interested in beer, porn and sports. (Media images of an idealized male who is non-violent, scholarly and not an asshole are few and far between).

    And some men do change, just like some women do. Do you have exactly the same beliefs you had 5 years ago? Ten? When I met my ex-husband, right at the start of our freshman year in college, he was completely ignorant about LGBT issues. 10 months later he decided to volunteer full time all summer for Act-Up. (and he is straighter than straight, in case you’re wondering). When he was growing up and in college, my current partner was a Southern conservative Reagan lover. But he’s also a scientist and a secularist; by the time I met him he had already every conservative premise he’s been taught. Still, he hated Hillary Clinton. But he slowly came to admire her and now he thinks she’s great. Look, it happens.

    And does all this talk about “men” include gay men? Are they all sexists, or are they not men?

    To go back to the example of my bum of a stepfather – it is possible for a man to be unreliable, to be…. well, let’s just say extremely problematic. A bad life partner. A man can be a lot of undesirable things but still not be a sexist. I think Bill Clinton is another example. He’s got problems, but being a sexist is – I’m willing to bet – not one of them. Look at who he fell in love with (Hillary actually turned him down at least once when he proposed); look at the women he appointed in his administration (Shalala, Albright, Reno); look at the way Chelsea turned out; look at his fierce support of Hillary now. This is not a man who thinks women are inferior, or won’t listen to a woman, or is made uncomfortable by brilliant and serious women.

    I don’t know what I’m trying to say exactly… just don’t go down the path of “men are crap” because the only thing that will lead you to is lowering your expectations and excusing bad behavior (“he can’t help it”). And you will be reifying stereotypes (gay men are not “real” men) to boot.

    Now carry on, dears.

  22. 22

    L.M. said,

    Yeah, men may treat some women – usually high status women or women of the same race, class, etc – well and with respect, I don’t dispute that, but do those women have any idea how men treat women of lesser status? Because there is nothing incompatible about men treating upper middle class white women well, and then mistreating or sexually abusing mentally disabled women, mocking fat or old women, harassing women of lower socioeconomic status, exploiting strippers or prostitutes and/or having hateful beliefs about nonwhite, lesbian or homeless women. (And no, I’m not assuming that all men are white and upper middle class, it is perfectly possible for a – for example – poor nonwhite man to have hateful beliefs about lesbians or fat women.)
    Feminist bloggers have said over and over and over again that rapists and creeps do not have it tattooed on their forehead. Many of them – such as Kyle Payne – are “nice” “normal” men.
    As for gay men – I believe that the subject of this post was about heterosexual feminists’ interactions with heterosexual men in terms of romantic relationships. I do think that gay men can and often are sexist, though. Just because they are gay does not mean they do not have male privilege and were not raised to hate women.

  23. 23

    marytracy9 said,

    Hi, Liz and Ciccina. Thanks for injecting some optimism in the discussion.

    Ciccina, in this kind of discussions I think it is valid to make generalizations so we can understand how society works. We are all fully aware that these generalizations break down the minute you try to apply them to an individual level. It is true that in this particular post the two concepts come into play and it may give the impression that I (and other feminists) think that “all men are crap” but believe me, that’s not the case.

    My intention was to start a discussion over how do we straight feminists deal with the conflicting feelings we have when it comes to being emotionally involved with straight men, feelings that do not arise, I think, with gay men.

    L.M.‘s comment is spot on. As I said on the post, it comes down to how high men score on the Tracy Test of General Assholery. It’s not precisely “grand” if men don’t abuse their (wealthy) wives but are quite happy to travel abroad and pay for the privilige to rape a girl/child. It’s their opinion of women, all women, that matters most to me and, I think, to a good number of feminists.

  24. 24

    Liz said,

    I have to say that I also agree with Littoral Mermaid. A man or woman that treats lower ‘status’ women with disdain, misogyny and disrespect is a measure of how sexist they are. A lot of men and women both skim over me and I have had a lot of shit because I am deaf (I’m not saying that this is as bad as women who are poor or considered working class etc) and also because I am fat (in that reclaimation of the word due to fat activism!).

    Someone in my partners family said something like ‘it must be so difficult to be in a relationship with a deaf woman’ – shit, really?! I had no idea that it was SO hard to be in a relationship with a deaf woman, who happens to be a thinking, feeling human being. I’m often quite surprised and then not when people make assumptions about a hearing man being with a deaf woman. Do they assume that I rely on him all the time? When in gatherings of hearing people (family or friends) I am often quiet because I can’t follow all the talking that is going on unless some relays to me or slows down a bit or something. But yes, I ask my partner because he is the most convenient person and I can lipread him well. It’s not really a relying on someone – if people could be bothered to turn towards me and tell me what their saying then I wouldn’t have to ask him. A lot of people seem to assume, from the outside, that our relationship must be unequal (yeah, right).

    Anyway, despite being a white middle class woman (according to what I own – I’m quite poor being a student and on disability benefits), we all have different things that make things harder. I don’t measure men’s treatment of ME as proof that they are not sexist because I know that they often make comments about women (they think I can’t hear, but I can see…) on TV or women passing by etc. I call out sexism sometimes from my father and other people in my family (which is sometimes followed by the cry of ‘I’m only joking’ or something, gah). But sometimes it isn’t enough; I know that the way men around me view sex workers, prostitutes, women of color, disabled women, fat women and so on is a mark of that double standard of misogyny.

  25. 25

    Rich said,

    “A man can be a lot of undesirable things but still not be a sexist.”

    It’s not just about having some kind of pathological hatred for women (although there’s certainly more of those guys than most people are willing to admit). It’s about power and the way society is set up:

    A jerk with a gun is more dangerous than a jerk without one. A jerk who is believed by the cops (racial privilege) is more dangerous than a jerk who is likely to be hassled by the cops. A jerk with money is more dangerous than a jerk without money. A jerk with a dick is generally more dangerous than a jerk without one in a society with a penetrative model for sex.

    In that context, a person might just be a jerk, but not all jerks are created equal, nor do they express their misanthropy equally (as many claim they do, “I’m not a XYZ-ist, I hate everyone equally”) as most people pick safer targets, rather than more powerful ones. And yeah, the second one picks one of those safer targets, you’re well on the road to being an -ist of some sort. I know I’m one. This is a problem that transcends personalities; labeling it as if “she said ‘men are crap'” is just a straw argument.

  26. 26

    Arantxa said,

    Celibacy beats being in a relationship with a man – any man – but you cannot make a positive decision not to date men as long as you continue to believe that to live without men is to be deprived of something. And if you are willing to consider that no woman is heterosexual, you could be a lesbian.

  27. 27

    Foremost, this is a question to Lara, but I’d also like to ask this of anyone else who might be reading,

    Lara, when you say things like:

    Argh, damned hormones. Ug, me woman, ug, me want good man for boing boing

    I have to wonder, why not just go out and get laid? I am not trying to be flippant or dismissive here, but am merely taking your comment at face value.

    Why the “damned hormones”? Would you rather not be horny at all? (it’s an honest question, I’m not trying to be an ass)

    I understand when you say this,

    I have a libido the size of Rhode Island and it’s a problem when that’s paired with an incessant (and righteous) suspicion of men overall.

    I also have a libido the size of… a larger Soviet republic, and I’ve gone through abuse and assault, and am very suspicious of most people, not just men.

    But there’s lots of guys out there, and lots of them happen to be good for sex. Doesn’t mean they’d make amazing life partners, but if you want sex, why not have some sex?

    Part of the reason I’m commenting is that I see this sentiment expressed a lot: feminist women who have legitimate issues with men find themselves bemoaning their hormones.

    Maybe there’s something wrong with me, but I largely keep the two issues separate. I’ve been with some jerks as well, and I’m not going to pretend that the dating world isn’t a shark tank, it can be, but ultimately, I wasn’t going to let that stop me getting what I want. Doing so would have been a defeat, at least in my case. Sure enough, I am lucky to be with a good guy at present, but I would have never met him had I not sought him out first.

    I guess what I’m saying is, perhaps it’s better to deal with the fact that the sexual landscape isn’t a rose garden without necessarily denying yourself the dick, if the dick is what you want?

    This ties into to my annoyance with how straight feminists often idealize lesbian feminists… I’m not accusing anyone here of doing that, but I also see this a lot, and it comes down to a “lesbians are luckier.” But isn’t that a harmful generalization to make? Lesbians are all individuals, after all.

    I guess this lesbianism-on-a-pedestal thing is just weird to me. It results in political lesbianism and I just don’t get that.

  28. 28

    marytracy9 said,

    Natalia, that is an interesting question. A bit too philosophical, I think, of the “if a tree falls and no one hears it…” variety. If one was never horny, would one miss out anything?

    My post in particular wasn’t dealing with the mere phisical want for sex. That sounds slightly easier to deal with, as you say. Though I have to disagree with you when you say that

    “there’s lots of guys out there, and lots of them happen to be good for sex.”

    It is my experience that finding a man who is “good for sex” is harder than finding a “good” man. And I guess that’s where the idealization of lesbian feminists comes in: sex with a woman is bound to be better because most of them at least will know where the clitoris is. Most men neither know not care. The standard for men is very, very low. (I’m half joking here, so don’t take me seriusly).

    I found that to get “good” sex from a man you have to train them, which is hard to do unless they are “good” men who you are in a relationship with. So for me, personally, it’s a no-win situation.

  29. 29

    Lara said,

    Natalia, I have screwed my way through the Virginia/DC area and I will second what Mary Tracy said: a lot of guys are not really that great for sex. They are often an utter disappointment.

    “I have to wonder, why not just go out and get laid?”

    See, I used to do this more often, and I have found that guys, and their penises, are extremely overrated. Rarely does a woman orgasm during penis-to-vagina intercourse with men.

    “I guess what I’m saying is, perhaps it’s better to deal with the fact that the sexual landscape isn’t a rose garden without necessarily denying yourself the dick, if the dick is what you want?”

    Well, that’s the thing. IS it what I want after all? It’s a very strange predicament to be in. And I don’t think I created it for myself.

    “Part of the reason I’m commenting is that I see this sentiment expressed a lot: feminist women who have legitimate issues with men find themselves bemoaning their hormones.

    Maybe there’s something wrong with me, but I largely keep the two issues separate.”

    I can’t separate the two issues because men’s social/sexual/economic power does not suddenly disappear in the bedroom. It’s exactly that (they’re male power/privilege) that puts me at the risk of abuse and rape. What’s more, guys do tend to get boring after a short while of boinging.

    “I guess this lesbianism-on-a-pedestal thing is just weird to me. It results in political lesbianism and I just don’t get that.”

    While I agree that lesbians certainly don’t have it all fine and dandy, I sympathize a lot with political lesbians, and admire them in many ways, even though I wouldn’t become a political lesbian myself. The thing is, I am wondering how much I’ve been socialized to “want dick” and how much of it is “biological.” My guess is that it’s more of the former.
    This is the type of subject that takes a LOT of thinking, and I ponder this stuff all the time.
    On a directly related note, I actually am on the prowl right now, interestingly enough, for a guy I think is right for me. And it’s pretty sad how either the guy’s personality/views are too different than mine to work, or they are just not attractive enough (not just in the hotness factor, but also just in overall chemistry), or they’re just straight up boring/have emotional or attachment issues.

  30. 30

    It’s sort of funny to me, that you go on and on about how “all men” hate you, and then you pretty much generalize all of them, and showcase that you in fact, hate all men.

    If there’s anything that sucks about being a radical feminist who is straight, the fault is at your own feet, not that of men.

    You’d probably have an easier time if you didn’t slap all men into one big generalized category, if you didn’t make hypocritical double standards towards them, and most importantly, if you didn’t start out hating them before they’ve done anything to you.

    You paint every aspect of a relationship in a “Me, me, me! It’s all about MEEEEE!” way, and frankly, maybe it’s not your feminism men have a problem with, it’s your self-absorption.

    Relationships are two people, working together. They are not you, and your list of demands.

    If you want a good test, when you walk into a relationship with your demands, turn it on it’s head. Imagine your internal and external reactions to a man coming into it, and presenting you with a list of “YOU MUST DO THIS”.

    How would you react to that? Would you want him gone? Consider him a piece of crap?

    People, women AND men, do not like to be given orders, or have demands made of them. Especially in relationships. Relationships are fluidity and compromise. If you treat them as a rigid “You must do what I say” situation, you won’t get far.

    Comments like “I don’t believe any man is safe” are complete garbage. You aren’t safe either. You could go nuts and murder your children. Statistically, women kill more children than men, you know.

    They act entitled to care from women, to sex from women, to being the center of attention.

    Because women NEVER do that in relationships, right?

    They look at relationships as if they are business transactions.

    Many do, and the blame for this rests on women. When many women treat relationships as a second income, naturally, men will begin to view it as a business arrangement.

    Point is, throwing all men into a “all men are THIS”/”all men should be treated with suspicion” pile is no better than all women/all feminists being classed, grouped, and generalized. It’s also just as offensive, and just as counter-productive.

    By walking into every relationship assuming that it’s You vs The Enemy, of course you’re never going to get anywhere. You’re setting up a self-fulfilling prophecy. You go in, assume he’s crap, act wary of him because you believe he’s crap, and when he reacts to that, you assume it’s actually because he hates women/feminists, and then you feel justified when you take off, and rant about him “just proving you right about men”.

  31. 31

    Lara said,

    MT, Black Thirteen’s comments here are so full of oblivious misogynist BS that it shouldn’t have even been allowed on here.

    “Patriarchy is the fault of women!! Whaah whaaa!”

    “Comments like “I don’t believe any man is safe” are complete garbage. You aren’t safe either. You could go nuts and murder your children. Statistically, women kill more children than men, you know.”

    Really? And where are your handy dandy statistics to prove that, snookums?

    “You’d probably have an easier time if you didn’t slap all men into one big generalized category, if you didn’t make hypocritical double standards towards them, and most importantly, if you didn’t start out hating them before they’ve done anything to you.”

    Oh, you mean, like being molested 7 times by a few different guys? You mean by being harassed all the fucking time on the street? You mean by the way practically all of my boyfriends expected me to suck their damned cocks all the time? Or to be their emotional crutches?
    Nice, making assumptions about us women while condemning “stereotypes about men” in the same breath. Black Thirteen sounds like a classic MRA to me. “Ohh, if you frigid neurotic bitches just loosened up and forget about all the constant abuses men throw on you 24/7 you have a much better time!” Thanks, Mr/Ms. Psychologist, for preaching to me about “self-fullfilling prophecy.” Just another way of saying “you bitches asked for it!” You completely reaffirm every reason we have to be suspicious of men and patriarchy. Thanks.
    Please do yourself, and others, a favor and shut the fuck up, asshole.

  32. 32

    MT, Black Thirteen’s comments here are so full of oblivious misogynist BS that it shouldn’t have even been allowed on here.

    If you don’t know what “misogynist” means, don’t use it.

    Just because someone disagrees with you in some way, doesn’t mean they hate women, sorry.

    If you plan to claim that my statements are “misogynist” (they aren’t), then I could call all of yours misandrist.

    Really? And where are your handy dandy statistics to prove that, snookums?

    http://www.calib.com/nccanch/chma99.pdf

    http://www.aifs.gov.au/nch/pubs/sheets/rs7/rs7.html

    They’re also more likely to be the perpetrator in any form of child maltreatment.

    And don’t call me “snookums”, thanks.

    Oh, you mean, like being molested 7 times by a few different guys? You mean by being harassed all the fucking time on the street? You mean by the way practically all of my boyfriends expected me to suck their damned cocks all the time? Or to be their emotional crutches?

    “A few different guys” out of 3 billion. Yes, that’s terrible that that happened, but they did that to you, not all the rest of men. Harassed in the street, yes, that sucks, but society has been set up to make certain that if women want a date, they sit back and wait, and if men want one, they have to go pester women. If the occurrences of woman approaching men were equal with men approaching women, men might not harass women as much.

    Again, though, those men are not all men.

    Oh no! They wanted oral sex? Those horrible bastards. *eye roll*. It’s funny, you can complain about boyfriends wanting oral sex, but can you say that and claim you’ve never asked for it yourself? You’ve never once wanted to get oral? You never hinted, asked, harassed, or coerced a male into going down on you? I find that hard to believe.

    Emotional crutch? Man, what bastards, they expected an emotional connection with their girlfriend? How awful.

    It’s strange, women/feminists complain that society makes men unemotional and creates a world where it’s “bad” for men to show emotion… And then you turn around and complain when they do.

    Point is, this is still not a valid reason to hate men before they’ve even had a chance to do anything.

    If I did that with women, I’d be called a “misogynist” and told I was making unfair generalizations. When you do it, it’s fine? No. I think not.

    Again, going into a relationship hating someone is not going to work. Ever. If you expect a relationship should be a man proving to you why you shouldn’t hate him, naturally, he won’t stick around for that sort of emotional abuse.

    Nice, making assumptions about us women while condemning “stereotypes about men” in the same breath.

    It’s not assumptions when I can sit here and see you saying the things I’m “assuming”.

    “Ohh, if you frigid neurotic bitches just loosened up and forget about all the constant abuses men throw on you 24/7 you have a much better time!”

    Straw man, ignored.

    Thanks, Mr/Ms. Psychologist, for preaching to me about “self-fullfilling prophecy.” Just another way of saying “you bitches asked for it!” You completely reaffirm every reason we have to be suspicious of men and patriarchy.

    Again, straw man. I’ll address this one, though.

    No, it’s not saying “you asked for it”. Again, you’re doing exactly what I pointed out. You’re setting up a situation that will prove yourself right. Because you seem the type that doesn’t want to be wrong. You don’t want to see that all men are not what you generalize them to be.

    By self-fulfilling prophecy, I made my point clear. Do not attempt to attach other meanings to it, in order to “prove your point”.

    If you go into a relationship hating someone, and making it clear that you hate them, they’re going to react. That’s emotional abuse. Yep. It sure is. And when you do that, they’re going to distance themselves from you. They’re not going to want to be around you. I don’t go near people who hate me, why would they?

    Then, you can just say they left or didn’t give you what you wanted because they “hate women” or “hate feminists” or “disagree with your feminism”.

    You did it here, you immediately assume that any disagreement or different opinion MUST mean I “hate women”.

    You immediately turn it into something where you say “SEE! I was right!”. That’s my point.

    Again, my point stands. Hating someone before they’ve done something to you is not conducive to a relationship.

    Nor is treating your partner with suspicion, while demanding that they trust you.

    If the man you meet has had numerous bad experiences with women, would you be offended and angry if he generalized you and assumed you’d act like all his former girlfriends? I bet that would make you mad, wouldn’t it? I’m betting you’d say he was a misogynist, and not worth your time.

    But somehow, it’s okay for you to do to him?

    Again, if you wouldn’t want a man approaching you with a list of demands, and ordering you how to act in the relationship, what on Earth would make you think it was acceptable for you to do?

    I wouldn’t date a person who demanded my trust, my fidelity, my emotional energy, my care, and my love, who turned around and didn’t trust me, wasn’t faithful, wouldn’t allow themselves to care, and hated me from day 1. Would you?

  33. 33

    Addendum:

    What I see it coming down to is you saying you have trouble with dating men, because you believe they all hate all women, but you turn around and say they damn well better be fine with you hating them.

    What’s more, guys do tend to get boring after a short while of boinging.

    If you wouldn’t want it said about women, don’t say it about men.

  34. 34

    Lara said,

    Keep commenting and digging your own grave here, Black Thirteen. You’re proving yourself to be more and more of an arrogant misogynist.

    “Men will often admit other women are oppressed but not you.”
    ~Sheila Rowbotham

    ‘Nuff said. If you think women/feminists (boy oh boy, so revealing how you lump the two groups together) are too stupid to even know what’s good for themselves, than don’t bother constantly talking down to/psychoanalyzing one over here.
    How you talk about me, how you talk about women, and how you talk about feminists reveals a lot more about you and your character than it does about the former.
    You are an MRA from head to toe. Stop preaching to women how to go about their daily lives/feminism. K?

  35. 35

    Keep commenting and digging your own grave here, Black Thirteen. You’re proving yourself to be more and more of an arrogant misogynist.

    Again, if you can’t use the word right, don’t use it. What have I said that says “I hate women”? Oh, right. Nothing.

    How have I “proven myself” to be a “misogynist”? Do tell. Do I sit here and say you’re “proving yourself to be a misandrist”?

    Nuff said. If you think women/feminists (boy oh boy, so revealing how you lump the two groups together) are too stupid to even know what’s good for themselves, than don’t bother constantly talking down to/psychoanalyzing one over here.

    Refrain from putting words in my mouth.

    How you talk about me, how you talk about women, and how you talk about feminists reveals a lot more about you and your character than it does about the former.

    I don’t see how. Pointing out that entering a relationship demanding they trust you, while you refuse to trust them doesn’t “reveal” anything about my “character”, unless you count it as revealing the fact that I don’t think a relationship is a success without trust.

    Or that it reveals that I think you’re being a hypocrite by pre-judging ALL men based on the actions of a few, while simultaneously saying it’s misogynist if a man does the same to women.

    All I’m saying, and have been saying, which you refuse to hear, is this: Expecting someone to give you a good relationship, while refusing to trust them, and hating them will not work.

    Would you date a man who came to you, said he hated you, and was going to refuse to trust you, and hold all your actions suspect based on things OTHER women have done to him or in his life?

    Or would you be damned offended, and tell him to hit the road?

    Just saying, if you wouldn’t want it done to you, don’t do it to someone else.

    If I said “Women are only good for short term “boinging” and get boring after a short while, and aren’t worth trusting”, what would you call that?

    Because it’s what you’re saying about men. It’s no wonder you can’t find a functional relationship, and it’s not the fault of men.

    I certainly wouldn’t want ANYTHING to do with a person (romantically) who refused to trust me, while demanding I trust them, and who gave me commands and orders.

    I’d also find it difficult to be with someone who demanded their own pleasure (oral sex, etcetera), while refusing to reciprocate.

    It seems what you’re looking for is a dog. You sound like you want something that will follow commands, and live entirely for your purposes.

    Trust is not an optional component in relationships. It’s an essential one. I can keep saying this all day long, but it appears you think you’re an exception. If you don’t trust your partner, the relationship WILL fail, and it WILL be your fault.

    That’s NOT “misogynist” to point out, no matter how much you want to claim it is.

    If you refuse to trust your partner, or always hold him in suspicion, or always doubt his motives, or always keep waiting for him to “turn on you”, he’s going to leave. Blaming him for that is ridiculous.

    I’ve seen hundreds of feminists that stress that women are not a monolith, that each individual is different, and should not be judged based on any other. So why do you think it’s misogynist for me to call bullshit when you do it to men?

    You are an MRA from head to toe. Stop preaching to women how to go about their daily lives/feminism. K?

    What have I said that falls under “men’s right’s activism”? Oh, right, not a single thing. Stop bandying about terms that you apparently have no idea what they mean. It’s silly and distracts from the actual conversation. Ad hominem attacks render your entire argument worthless, so leave them at home.

    It’s not “telling you how to go about your daily lives” to point out that you doom all your potential relationships by entering them hating the man involved, treating him like The Enemy, and refusing to trust him, and refusing to respect him, while demanding he respect and trust you.

    Relationships are a two-way street. You get the same trust you give, you get the same respect you give. I wouldn’t want to be with someone that refused to trust me, and held me responsible for things I didn’t do.

    The difference between us, is I’ve had terrible experiences with relationships, and gained massive trust issues. Ergo, I don’t get into relationships, because it’s damned unfair to the other person, to be subjected to someone that can’t trust them.

    You, on the other hand, seem to think men should sit down, shut up, and be glad that you’re even giving them the time of day, and be happy with that, despite not being trusted or respected.

    I just point out that that’s your problem, and that you’d be better served by avoiding relationships entirely, because it’s sickeningly unfair to be with someone when you hate them and can’t trust them.

  36. 36

    Addendum, again:

    How you talk about me, how you talk about women, and how you talk about feminists reveals a lot more about you and your character than it does about the former.

    I could say EXACTLY the same thing about you, based on what you say about men. Reveals a lot more about you and your character than it does about men.

  37. 37

    Lara said,

    Hey, fellow evol radfems. Here is the jackass’ email address and IP, ya know, in case you want to shoot him a nice email letting him know that women are not a bunch of lying murderous witches:

    mildennui@gmail.com | 76.26.218.209

    Comments he left at my blog:

    “Most men don’t rape, though. I know, it’s difficult to accept that you’re wrong, and making ridiculous exaggerated generalizations. But there you go.

    Also, funny thing, women rape too.”

    “Because when men are justifiably mistrustful of women, you scream and cry “misogyny!”

    Pot kettle black.”

    I can only assume by the “pot kettle black” at the end, as well as the interesting timing of his posting his crap at my blog, that this is “Black Thirteen.” They all sound the same anyway…

    If you had any sense at all you wouldn’t fuck with a sandnigger bitch.

  38. 38

    Oh hi guys. I asked a few questions, then promptly forgot about them. Bad Natalia.

    Anyway, I get what you’re saying about sex with men. But I wasn’t specifically talking about one-night stand. If you need a while to show a guy what you want, take a while.

    Lots of people I know have relationships purely for the purposes of sex. For some, it’s a problem, for others, it works out really well. I’m not saying it’s for everyone, but it’s something people might want to look into from time to time, no?

    And ultimately, does it matter whether or not one was socialized into liking dick? The point is, one likes dick. What should one do? Check into a re-education camp? OK, so I’m being facetious here, but I seriously doubt you can mould your sexuality to fit your ideology. This may sound grim, but does it have to be?

    Now, I am certain that some, if not all, people derive a form of pleasure and/or sustenance from inner conflicts regarding our sex lives and sexualities. Obviously said conflicts can be painful, but I think there is a reason why we keep acting them out within ourselves. I know myself to have a Madonna/Gloriana complex, for example. I know it clashes horribly with my libido. I make the best of it. But neither am I going to deny who I am (once again, am not accusing anyone of denial).

    I’m saying this because I see political lesbianism as essentially hijacking others’ sexualities. Turning other people’s lives into grand political statements. I don’t understand that. We are who we are.

    Also, Lara, I’m not exactly a fan of Black Thirteen’s comments here, but I don’t think that publishing his IP is the best course of action. This is MT’s blog, and it’s her discretion, obviously, but has he threatened you? Has he threatened anyone else? Why reveal his IP when all he’s doing is being obtuse?

    I’ve had a self-professed “anonymous feminist” running up and down the internets calling me a whore, but publishing her IP was the furthest thing from my mind (and anyway, she got smart and started using proxies).

    I think doing this with Black Thirteen is unwarranted, unless I am missing something. If I was in charge of this blog, I’d delete this information.

  39. 39

    marytracy9 said,

    Natalia, I’m not sure that the e-mail address Lara published corresponds to Black Thirteen. In his comments over here, he gives a different one. I’m not a fan of his comments either, but I don’t think he’s given us motives to stop him.

    I’d argue that sexuality can be moulded to fit one’s ideology. I know it because I’ve done it. And I have to say, my current feelings about sexuality are far better than anything I had experienced before, when my sexuality was at odds with my ideology.

    I think that sexuality in our current society is covered in so much crap that it’s easy to mistake the crap for the actual thing. But it isn’t. It really, really isn’t. It’s been a painful lesson for me and I’m still learning, but I am closer now to successfully separate between real sexuality and the crap we are sold.

  40. 40

    Relationships are a two-way street. You get the same trust you give, you get the same respect you give. I wouldn’t want to be with someone that refused to trust me, and held me responsible for things I didn’t do.

    I agree with that statement 100%, BT. However, it IS true that many women have entirely legitimate reasons for mistrusting men, the high statistics of rape and sexual abuse explain a lot of that. Simply dismissing this out of hand is missing the larger picture.

    A lot of people, myself included, have shared some personal information here, some of it painful. And you’re acting like the bull in the china-shop.

    Now, I’m not saying you’re a rapist or an abuser. I don’t know you. And I love and trust the men in my life, I have been lucky to have good ones who have stayed with me throughout, and hope they will be around for many years to come. My relationship with my dad is very strong, for example.

    But I know a helluva lot of women whose closest relationships turned into fiascos. And it’s not as if I’ve never been betrayed, abused, and assaulted by a man. I think that talking about in calm, mutually respective ways is productive. Simply lashing out at people is NOT helpful. It comes off as one more instance of the big, smart man telling the little ladies how they ought to think and act. Ugh.

  41. 41

    marytracy9 said,

    “However, it IS true that many women have entirely legitimate reasons for mistrusting men, the high statistics of rape and sexual abuse explain a lot of that. Simply dismissing this out of hand is missing the larger picture. “

    “And it’s not as if I’ve never been betrayed, abused, and assaulted by a man. I think that talking about in calm, mutually respective ways is productive. Simply lashing out at people is NOT helpful. It comes off as one more instance of the big, smart man telling the little ladies how they ought to think and act.”

    My thoughts exactly. Thanks, Natalia.

  42. 42

    Caroline said,

    Did he leave worse comments that the ones you quoted, Lara? I’ve got to say if he didn’t, granted he might irritate you but damn, publishing his IP was a step too far. I wouldn’t let anyone do that on my blog for those quotes alone.

  43. 43

    First, Lara: Sorry to disappoint, but as marytracy9 already pointed out, that is not my email address.

    Secondly, it’s quite telling, that your first reaction in any situation is to resort to making threats, veiled or otherwise.

    Moving on:

    I’m not a fan of his comments either, but I don’t think he’s given us motives to stop him.

    What’s so terrible about my comments? Are people that upset over what I figured was common sense?

    When you have people saying that they will never fully trust their partners, or that they enter into relationships hating their partner because he’s male, is it really that offensive to have someone say that with things like that present, that the relationship is going to fail?

    Is it that awful to point out that it’s unfair and wrong to mistrust and hate your partner, while expecting them to trust and love you?

    However, it IS true that many women have entirely legitimate reasons for mistrusting men, the high statistics of rape and sexual abuse explain a lot of that. Simply dismissing this out of hand is missing the larger picture.

    Generalizations against women are quickly pointed out as wrong, and unfair. Men are told that it is absolutely unacceptable to judge a woman based on the actions of other women. Neither men nor women are monolithic entities. Mistrusting the persons who have done you harm is fair. Mistrusting an entire gender, including those members of it that have done you no wrong, is not.

    A lot of people, myself included, have shared some personal information here, some of it painful. And you’re acting like the bull in the china-shop.

    Would it make you feel better if I shared some of mine?

    I’m sorry if you take it as “bull in china shop”, but when someone says that they hate men, and won’t ever trust them, and then complain that their relationships suck, sooner or later, someone is going to point out that maybe their relationships suck, because nobody wants to be with a partner that doesn’t trust them, and/or hates them.

    Simply lashing out at people is NOT helpful. It comes off as one more instance of the big, smart man telling the little ladies how they ought to think and act. Ugh.

    How do you figure? I wasn’t “lashing out” at people. It just seemed people here were refusing to believe that their faulty relationships (or lack of relationships) were anything but the fault of men, while they’re simultaneously admitting that they hate men, and/or don’t trust them, and/or refuse to ever trust one, even if they’re “with” him, and I was pointing out that you get what you give.

    If you give nothing but mistrust and no respect, you’re going to get mistrust, and no respect.

    It’s only natural for a man to run from a woman who refuses to trust him in a relationship.

    Why would he stay?

  44. 44

    Generalizations against women are quickly pointed out as wrong, and unfair.

    Yes, it is wrong and unfair, but if you don’t accept that there’s real power disparity between men and women, then there’s really nothing much for us to talk about.

    Personally, I know several men who were severely abused by women while growing up, including sexual abuse. Do they mistrust women? Yes. Do they generalize? Yes. Do I think it’s horrible of them? No, I think it’s only natural. But I also admit that their cases are less prevalent than opposite cases. Male violence and abuse, both against women and other men, is a pretty huge phenomenon. Denying that is like denying that women give birth to the next generation. I know I’m supposed to stay away from gender essentialist arguments, and I usually do, but to me, these things are as plain as day.

    As for your comments regarding trust, once again, I agree. I don’t think one can enter into a loving relationship while feeling zero trust for one’s partner, or being exceptionally angry at the notion that one’s partner is male.

    This is why I recommend more sex-based relationships for people who want to be in the groove, as it may, but aren’t ready for or interested in a solid commitment. It doesn’t work for everyone, but it’s something to consider.

    MT, I don’t doubt that our cognitive development affects our sexualities. If you learn how to respect yourself in different areas of life, there’s a chance you’ll probably respect yourself more when it comes to relationships.

    What I’m saying is that I don’t think you can unlearn heterosexuality. I mean, right-wing preachers keep saying that one can unlearn homosexuality. I generally don’t see it that way. I think most people are more complex and don’t live by rigid binaries, to be sure, but… I can’t find any alternatives to the kind of sex that I like. I don’t want to find any alternatives for it either. Why should I? Because the noble political lesbians have paved the way? I have to say I don’t trust that phenomenon at all.

  45. 45

    Also, in regards to male violence, people often argue about whether or not it’s the result of nature or nurture. I honestly see that as a false dichotomy.

    Every man is an individual, affected by a variety of factors. I think that every one of us, both men and women, is responsible for their actions at the end of the day.

    But I also think it’s true that more men are socialized into believing that it’s OK to “solve” an issue via brute force, especially if there’s little chance of getting caught.

    I hope that makes sense.

  46. 46

    As for your comments regarding trust, once again, I agree. I don’t think one can enter into a loving relationship while feeling zero trust for one’s partner, or being exceptionally angry at the notion that one’s partner is male.

    Which is why I pointed it out.

    This is why I recommend more sex-based relationships for people who want to be in the groove, as it may, but aren’t ready for or interested in a solid commitment. It doesn’t work for everyone, but it’s something to consider.

    A lot of people aren’t comfortable with casual sex. Yes, even men.

    Also, in regards to male violence, people often argue about whether or not it’s the result of nature or nurture. I honestly see that as a false dichotomy.

    Male animals engage in violence. Whether it’s violence for dominance, violence to prove said animal is the strongest, or whatever, they do it. Humans are still animals.

  47. 47

    Lara said,

    Oh, simply posting what I thought was Black Thirteen’s IP was just “too much” for some of you? Perhaps a few things flew over your heads when trying to figure out why I did that. Well for one, BT rolled his eyes at and made fun of me for talking about being pressured and manipulated by male partners into giving oral sex:

    “Oh no! They wanted oral sex? Those horrible bastards. *eye roll*. It’s funny, you can complain about boyfriends wanting oral sex, but can you say that and claim you’ve never asked for it yourself? You’ve never once wanted to get oral? You never hinted, asked, harassed, or coerced a male into going down on you? I find that hard to believe.”

    And no, you sick fuck, I have NEVER manipulated or coerced (jesus christ) a man into giving me head. Just goes to show you what kind of low-ass expectations you have of women. Your suspicion of them is ridiculous. Perhaps YOU like manipulating/pressuring/coercing women into giving you head, since that approach on the bedroom seems quite normal to you. But I don’t do that disgusting shit, thanks.

    “Male animals engage in violence. Whether it’s violence for dominance, violence to prove said animal is the strongest, or whatever, they do it. Humans are still animals.”

    Animals don’t sit and try to use science and writing to justify their violent tendencies, unlike human males. If it was just pure instinct none of us would be questioning any of this right now.
    Look, if some guy thinks he can come on here, laugh at or trivialize my sexual oppression as well as my sexual abuse, or try to tell me what to do with my sexuality/life:

    “It’s not “telling you how to go about your daily lives” to point out that you doom all your potential relationships by entering them hating the man involved, treating him like The Enemy, and refusing to trust him, and refusing to respect him, while demanding he respect and trust you.”

    Then he’s not even worthy of any respect at all. How the hell does he know how I treat the men around me? He thinks feminists go around raping and yelling at men all the time because he can’t fathom treating the “opposite sex” any other way. THAT, Black Thirteen, is projection.
    As Natalia pointed out, if you keep insisting that men and women are on the same playing field, that they are treated equally to start with, then you are completely missing the point and refusing to see that we live in a patriarchy.

    “Mistrusting an entire gender, including those members of it that have done you no wrong, is not.”

    AND

    “It’s strange, women/feminists complain that society makes men unemotional and creates a world where it’s “bad” for men to show emotion… And then you turn around and complain when they do.”

    Contradiction, much?

    “How do you figure? I wasn’t “lashing out” at people. It just seemed people here were refusing to believe that their faulty relationships (or lack of relationships) were anything but the fault of men, while they’re simultaneously admitting that they hate men, and/or don’t trust them, and/or refuse to ever trust one, even if they’re “with” him, and I was pointing out that you get what you give.”

    Right, because blaming individual women for the sexual abuse they’ve experienced is not “lashing out” at all… :/
    I would ask you to define what “trust” and “respect” are in a relationship but I kind of just want you to shut up. You’ll just act like you apply the same standards of behavior to men and women, but really, you don’t. You know, with you’re whole “everyone, regardless of gender, should treat each other with respect” and “males are naturally more violent than women, so yeah!”

    You’re a damned liar.

  48. 48

    Lara said,

    “Oh no! They wanted oral sex? Those horrible bastards. *eye roll*. It’s funny, you can complain about boyfriends wanting oral sex, but can you say that and claim you’ve never asked for it yourself? You’ve never once wanted to get oral? You never hinted, asked, harassed, or coerced a male into going down on you? I find that hard to believe.”

    Kindly asking and coercing/harassing are two different things. You clearly don’t get that.

  49. 49

    Well for one, BT rolled his eyes at and made fun of me for talking about being pressured and manipulated by male partners into giving oral sex:

    So, by practically all of my boyfriends expected me to suck their damned cocks all the time? you meant “pressured and manipulated”? Funny, I don’t see “manipulated” in “expected”.

    I have NEVER manipulated or coerced (jesus christ) a man into giving me head.

    I consider asking more than 3 times to be an attempt at coercion.

    Also, any attempted offers of “Well, if you do…then I’ll…”.

    Just goes to show you what kind of low-ass expectations you have of women. Your suspicion of them is ridiculous.

    For one, don’t put words in my mouth, and please do not attempt to divine my thoughts, as you’re not psychic. Secondly, it’s rather humorous that you’re so upset about even suspecting someone has low expectations of women, considering how low yours are for men.

    Double standards, anyone?

    Perhaps YOU like manipulating/pressuring/coercing women into giving you head, since that approach on the bedroom seems quite normal to you. But I don’t do that disgusting shit, thanks.

    Refrain from ad hominem attacks, thanks.

    How the hell does he know how I treat the men around me?

    Well, how the hell do you know how I treat women around me? You make wild assumptions, and then get angry when someone takes what you say to it’s logical conclusion?

    He thinks feminists go around raping and yelling at men all the time because he can’t fathom treating the “opposite sex” any other way.

    Again, refrain from ad hominem attacks and attempts at having psychic abilities. You do not have them.

    This is why I can make safe assumptions as to how you treat men. Your first thought is to accuse me of being a violent rapist.

    THAT, Black Thirteen, is projection.

    I’d say the one projecting is the one who attempts to act as though all men hate women, when you apparently hate all men.

    Contradiction, much?

    No, not at all, actually.

    Saying that it’s still to mistrust people that have done you no wrong, and then pointing out the irony in your statements about emotion is not a contradiction, as it has nothing to do with trust.

    It’s a simple observation. I often see feminists getting angry at the current defined gender roles, because they force men to be unemotional. Then I see those same feminists complaining when men ARE emotional.

    The reaction of those feminists would be a contradiction. My pointing it out is appreciation of irony.

    Has nothing to do with trust, so it’s not a contradiction on my part, I’m afraid.

    Right, because blaming individual women for the sexual abuse they’ve experienced is not “lashing out” at all… :/

    And explain where I did that. Oh, wait, I didn’t.

    You’re talking about sexual abuse, I’m talking about relationships.

    Maybe if you read what’s actually written, instead of reading what you want to see (in order to have a reason to attack and make threats), you’d be a lot less argumentative.

    I would ask you to define what “trust” and “respect” are in a relationship

    Well, for starters, not hating your partner would help those two. So would moving past thinking he could rape you at any time, or treating him with suspicion.

    “males are naturally more violent than women, so yeah!”

    Considering it was in a bit of a discussion about male violence being nature or nurture, there is evidence that it’s not all this big evil “gender role socialisation”, considering it occurs in animals by nature.

    Of course, you seemed to take it as some “see, men can’t help but rape”, because that’s what you wanted to see there, so you could attempt to justify your ire, however incorrectly.

    You’re a damned liar.

    Nope, I’m not.

    Kindly asking and coercing/harassing are two different things. You clearly don’t get that.

    Asking more than a couple times with any frequency is coercion, as far as I’m concerned.

    I’ve made it clear to every woman I’ve dated that I do not go down, end of story. I don’t like it, I don’t enjoy it, ergo, I don’t do it. If they ask after that, I say no. If they keep asking, I consider it an attempt at coercion, and I start making any sexual contact we have much less frequent.

    I don’t like sex to begin with (oh, crap, blew one of your assumptions about me out of the water, huh?), so, asking me to do more than I feel like doing, or making me do it when I don’t want to is considered a violation to me.

  50. 50

    *Saying that it’s still to mistrust people that have done you no wrong

    Silly, not still.

  51. 51

    Ciccina, Bill Clinton shows every sign of detesting women.

    Natalia, I don’t sleep with asshole misogynists even once if I can help it nor do I believe that to do so is the right thing because I firmly feel that asshole misogynists need to be shamed and shunned by all women as punishment for being asshole misogynists.

    I get that men sympathetic to radical feminism are extremely rare, but I do sort of wonder why it wasn’t pointed out immediately that radical feminists are extremely rare as well.

  52. 52

    I firmly feel that asshole misogynists need to be shamed and shunned by all women as punishment for being asshole misogynists.

    Since I love to turn arguments on their heads:

    So, if a woman hates men, should she need to be shamed and shunned by all men as punishment for being an asshole misandrist?

  53. 53

    thebewilderness said,

    “Again, if you can’t use the word right, don’t use it.”

    Thereby proving that the menz do not need to have a relationship with you to make demands, eh?
    Give that man a troll house cookie.

  54. 54

    Black Thirteen, that already happens everyday. And unfortunately it means more if men do it, cause you know, they kind of control society.

  55. 55

    Thereby proving that the menz do not need to have a relationship with you to make demands, eh?

    No, more like proving that you can point at a motorcycle and call it a car all day long, but it’s still not a car.

    Or, in other words, if someone disagrees with you, it doesn’t mean they “hate you”.

    Black Thirteen, that already happens everyday.

    Yeah, except, the prevailing attitude amongst feminists seems to be that getting angry at misandry is Very Bad, and getting angry at misogyny is Very Good.

  56. 56

    Lara said,

    Black Thirteen likes to intentionally ignore our arguments that: because we live in a patriarchy, women and men are NOT on an equal playing field. Women are subhuman, and men generally-speaking are treated as the human standard. SO….misandry does not have even remotely the same consequences, meanings, or effects as misogyny does. Because woman-hating is completely institutionalized and accepted, and misandry is NOT.
    Get it, snookums?

    “Or, in other words, if someone disagrees with you, it doesn’t mean they “hate you”.”

    Making fun of someone for being sad/angry about the sexual abuse they’ve experienced does kind of mean you hate them. And no, I am not going to go in details with you about my experiences to prove to you, Mr. Almighty, that they were sexual abuse, k?
    There is no point in constantly arguing with us. Your arguments are self-absorbed, hypocritical, and they are getting boring and predictive. So stop, for your sake. You will be wasting precious ours of your miserable woman-hating life responding to us on this blog.

  57. 57

    Lara said,

    “predictive”

    ack, “predictable”

  58. 58

    Lara said,

    “ours” is supposed to be “hours”

    I must be tired… sorry for the serial posting MT.

  59. 59

    SO….misandry does not have even remotely the same consequences, meanings, or effects as misogyny does. Because woman-hating is completely institutionalized and accepted, and misandry is NOT.
    Get it, snookums?

    So? What you’re saying is “Hating women is BAD! Hating men is GOOD!”.

    Doesn’t work that way, sorry.

    Also, you seem to think everyone hates women. They don’t.

    Also, don’t call me “snookums”. I don’t feel like being patronized by a self-aggrandizing ass.

    There is no point in constantly arguing with us. Your arguments are self-absorbed, hypocritical, and they are getting boring and predictive. So stop, for your sake. You will be wasting precious ours of your miserable woman-hating life responding to us on this blog.

    Oh, for a second there, I thought you were talking to a mirror.

    Your arguments are self-absorbed, hypocritical, and are getting boring and predictable.

    You’re wasting precious hours of your man hating life!

    There’s nothing hypocritical about what I say, sorry.

    Though, the last refuge of someone with no valid argument (you), is to start slinging insults and ad hominem attacks.

  60. 60

    marytracy9 said,

    Black Thirteen, you are expressing yourself with an offensive tone I will not allow in this blog. Lara may be using strong language, but she has stated that the reason may lay on first hand experience of violence caused by a man. It is reasonable and natural that if someone has suffered at the hands on an individual, she will end up hating the whole group that that individual belongs to. And one should have some basic human empathy to understand this and keep quiet about it. Even if one happens to be a member of the group that is being hated.

    This is true on a personal level. When it comes to the whole of society, though, since men and women are not equal, woman hating and men hating cannot be put on an equal playing field, as Lara said. Hating women is not only sanctioned, but it’s essential for the current social hierarchy, that is, patriarchy. The same is true for every oppressed group there is. It’s whites hating blacks that has an effect on society, not blacks hating whites. The same is true for the rich hating the poor, but not for the poor hating the rich.

    It seems that you don’t share the basic, core beliefs as most people on this blog, namely, that women and men do not have it equal as of yet. So I wonder, what makes you continue reading this blog?
    If what you want to find out is if feminists hate men, then let me tell you straight away: no. Feminists don’t hate men, and feminism doesn’t include “misandry” anywhere. For the very reason that we belief that the idea that some group has to be above other is essentially wrong. The idea is not to for us women to become the oppressors instead of men, but for all oppression (by all human groups) to end.

  61. 61

    thebewilderness said,

    MT, he’s doing what MRA trolls do. He is going into feminist comment threads here, at L’s, and who know where else, to see if he can make the comment thread all about him. Attention is the troll goal.
    With the live link he also leaves troll tracks so other trolls can find him at his blog.

  62. 62

    L said,

    Yeah, he’s prolific, apparently. He’s still sending me comments even though I haven’t published any since the first one (and I did that just so I could mock him) — I think it’s up to 8 unpublished comments now, all in a matter of 18 hours. It’s obviously not worth it to try to talk with him.

    And now I’m off to add this blog to my blogroll! Nice work here.

  63. 63

    Black Thirteen, you are expressing yourself with an offensive tone I will not allow in this blog.

    Excuse me? No offense, but Lara is slinging insults, making wild assumptions (for instance, implying that I’m a violent rapist), and has made threats.

    Why was nothing said to her about this behaviour? If you’re going to apply the rules, I respectfully ask that you apply them equally.

    It is reasonable and natural that if someone has suffered at the hands on an individual, she will end up hating the whole group that that individual belongs to.

    Again, you say this is reasonable, but when the situation is reversed, it’s said it isn’t. Why?

    And one should have some basic human empathy to understand this and keep quiet about it. Even if one happens to be a member of the group that is being hated.

    I am neither nice, nor sociable, nor one known to coddle. Especially when someone insults me, attacks me, calls me a rapist, maligns me, and makes various false statements about my character.

    ating women is not only sanctioned, but it’s essential for the current social hierarchy, that is, patriarchy. The same is true for every oppressed group there is. It’s whites hating blacks that has an effect on society, not blacks hating whites. The same is true for the rich hating the poor, but not for the poor hating the rich.

    Saying “You hate me, so, it’s cool if I hate you”, doesn’t make it right. You know, two wrongs, and such.

    Also, as far as I can tell, her arguments stem from “all men hate all women” which has no factual basis. It is opinion. Her own opinion. If you believe that someone hates you, no matter what they do, that’s not a rational conclusion.

    Hell, so far, she’s accused me of hating women multiple times, for something as simple as having a different opinion about what constitutes a good relationship.

    Feminists don’t hate men, and feminism doesn’t include “misandry” anywhere.

    Except earlier, you just pointed out that one of your commenters hates men, and you sanctioned and justified it.

    For the very reason that we belief that the idea that some group has to be above other is essentially wrong. The idea is not to for us women to become the oppressors instead of men, but for all oppression (by all human groups) to end.

    Except as far as I can tell, quite a few factions/sects/groups/whatever of feminism, seem to be very strongly vested in the idea that “women are superior”, which sounds a lot like changing who is oppressing who.

    MT, he’s doing what MRA trolls do.

    I wasn’t talking to you, WRA troll.

    Again, bandying about silly terms will get you one thing from me: Silly terms in return. Until you can point out where exactly I’ve spoken of “men’s rights activism”, I’ll ask you to refrain from speaking to, of, or about me.

    With the live link he also leaves troll tracks so other trolls can find him at his blog.

    Yeah, because a blog that questions racism, questions the prolific nature of Christianity in this country, and questions the pharmaceutical industry is SUCH a “troll blog”. Yep, you got me. Being anti-racist is actually the new troll. Malevolence is out this year, you know. Being against racism and against people refusing to acknowledge anything but Christianity is actually what all the cool trolls do.

    Please.

  64. 64

    He’s still sending me comments even though I haven’t published any since the first one (and I did that just so I could mock him) — I think it’s up to 8 unpublished comments now, all in a matter of 18 hours. It’s obviously not worth it to try to talk with him.

    Yeah, mocking people who disagree with you is totally arguing/talking in good faith. Definitely.

  65. 65

    L said,

    You have to give good faith to get it, my friend.

  66. 66

    You have to give good faith to get it, my friend.

    One could say the same to you.

  67. 67

    Lara said,

    “MT, he’s doing what MRA trolls do.

    I wasn’t talking to you, WRA troll.”

    I’m a little teapot short and stout, here is my handle, here is my spout. Tip me over and pour me out…

  68. 68

    L said,

    One could say the same to you.

    Need I remind you that you came to my blog and started lashing out at every single word written there? How can I possibly have good faith in that sort of situation, dude? You honestly expect me to respond graciously to some misogynist taking a shit in my territory?

  69. 69

    Need I remind you that you came to my blog and started lashing out at every single word written there? How can I possibly have good faith in that sort of situation, dude? You honestly expect me to respond graciously to some misogynist taking a shit in my territory?

    Again, you can’t really just call someone something and have it be true, sorry. Feel free to call me a “misogynist” all you like. As much as you wish it was, it’ll never be true, no matter how many times you say it. Ever.

    Ad hominem is not good faith.

    Maybe you wouldn’t have people calling you on the carpet for things you say, if you didn’t say inflammatory, generalizing, stereotypical, fallacious whatnot.

  70. 70

    Lara said,

    Again, you can’t really just call someone something and have it be true, sorry. Feel free to call me a “misogynist” all you like. As much as you wish it was, it’ll never be true, no matter how many times you say it. Ever.

    Ad hominem is not good faith.

    Maybe you wouldn’t have people calling you on the carpet for things you say, if you didn’t say inflammatory, generalizing, stereotypical, fallacious whatnot.

    I have a lovely bunch of coconuts, deedeeleedee
    There they are all standing in a row.
    Bum bum bum

    Big ones, small ones, some as big as your head!!!

  71. 71

    Natalia, I don’t sleep with asshole misogynists even once if I can help it nor do I believe that to do so is the right thing because I firmly feel that asshole misogynists need to be shamed and shunned by all women as punishment for being asshole misogynists.

    I don’t advise you, or anyone else, to sleep with someone you consider an asshole. That would be horrible.

  72. 72

    Having said that, none of us have to be in luuuuurv to have sex. Although said luuuuuuurv does help.

  73. 73

    jo22 said,

    Black Thirteen: ‘I consider asking more than 3 times to be an attempt at coercion’

    3 times? Attempt at coercion?

    If the answer is no the first time, to ask again is coercive.

  74. 74

    Black Thirteen: ‘I consider asking more than 3 times to be an attempt at coercion’

    3 times? Attempt at coercion?

    If the answer is no the first time, to ask again is coercive.

    You set your own standards for what you find acceptable or not, I’ll set mine.

    Since I was referring to someone asking me, I think I’m allowed to set my own boundaries, yeah?

  75. 75

    Eibhear said,

    Although this is last month’s blog, just in case Black Thirteen is listening,
    please bear in mind that men are afraid that women will laugh at
    them. Women are afraid that men will kill them. Also, harrassing
    women on the street is not the same as asking for a date. In
    case you hadn’t noticed, there is a great deal of difference
    between saying, “Fancy meeting up for a drink sometime?”, and,
    “Hey, darling! Want to suck my dick?”.

  76. 76

    Huh. I had a twitch to come check this today, and what do you know? Suppose it’s a good thing I did.

    please bear in mind that men are afraid that women will laugh at
    them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.

    First, I know a lot of women. I seriously, strongly doubt that any of them fear that random men in public will kill them.

    Secondly, even if what you say is true, I would consider it highly unreasonable, and incredibly irrational. Why? Well, considering that men make up something around 70% (or more) of all victims of violent crime, if someone’s going to get killed,the odds are very, very good that it’ll be a male, not a female.

    Also, harrassing
    women on the street is not the same as asking for a date. In
    case you hadn’t noticed, there is a great deal of difference
    between saying, “Fancy meeting up for a drink sometime?”, and,
    “Hey, darling! Want to suck my dick?”.

    Sure, to me, there’s a difference.

    However, to a lot of women (especially feminists, sorry), there is no difference at all. Each response is treated the same: assuming the intent is the latter, by default, then reacting based on that.

    In some things I’ve read, I notice the going response is basically “Men shouldn’t approach women! It’s bad/aggressive/rude/whatever! Men should just wait for women to approach them!”.

    This is generally the consensus I see. Though, that’s an incredibly flawed idea, considering women in general are not taught to do that, and hey, wouldn’t it be just as bad/aggressive/rude/whatever for women to go after men for a date?

  77. 77

    Eibhear said,

    A chara,
    Although I am unaware of any scientific studies as to whether, “Handsome is as handsome does”,or, “A stitch in time saves nine”, I find them handy and candid axioms.”Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them”, is a well-known saw. I’m frankly gobsmacked that you appear never to have heard it before. To wit: I appreciate that men fear violence from fellow males, but you rarely have to fear violence from females. I rareley fear violence from my fellow females. WE ALWAYS HAVE TO BE WARY OF MALES. Even if he seems to be a respectable and gentle fella, WE ALWAYS HAVE TO BE CAUTIOUS. For example, Ian Huntley, a very charming and plausible serial rapist, was not unusual; Ian Huntley is very common (please note topmost post). If he hadn’t actually murdered two people, he’d still be out there, raping away. As for chatting up women, for Christ’s sake, boy, haven’t you an ounce of common sense? Noone is saying that you never speak to us again. All we’re asking is to be treated like actual human beings, with courtesy and respect. My brother has never had a problem with this, or with feminism, ani-racism, anti-semitism, etc. but then he was reared to have good manners and consideration for other people’s feelings.
    P.S. In the U.K.. on average, two women a week are killed by their partner or former partner. Nearly half of all female murder victims are killed by a partner or ex-partner.
    Is mise, le meas

  78. 78

    I’m frankly gobsmacked that you appear never to have heard it before.

    Well, will you be gobsmacked when I tell you I have no idea what gobsmacked is?

    My point is, men make up the vast majority of murder victims, and overall victims of violence in general. Being wary of a male as a female in such a way, is overcompensating.

    Being female makes you less likely to be a victim of violence, contrary to popular belief.

    As for chatting up women, for Christ’s sake, boy, haven’t you an ounce of common sense?

    Sure, why?

    Noone is saying that you never speak to us again. All we’re asking is to be treated like actual human beings, with courtesy and respect. My brother has never had a problem with this, or with feminism, ani-racism, anti-semitism, etc. but then he was reared to have good manners and consideration for other people’s feelings.

    Eh. I never said I don’t speak to women. I just don’t hit on/flirt with/fuck them anymore.


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